Improved Bounty Mode
#1
So there's been some talk about ways to improve bounty mode. The general idea is to allow the bounty to have special abilities to make him harder to kill. (Ideally, the host should be able to choose which combination of abilities to use in each game from a menu).

Ideas so far (Comment on ideas you like, and ones you don't. Once again, the bounty wouldn't have ALL of these, only the ones the host selected when starting the game):

Infinite Invisibility
Lots of Shield (slider, 200 to ?)
Damage Multiplied (slider, up to insta-kill)
Slow Shield Regen
Regenerate Secondaries (gain a smart every 10 seconds, mega every 30, or whatever)
Infinite Energy
Double Weapons (4 lasers [8 with quad], 4 fusions, 2 smarts [only using 1 ammo], etc.)
Mega-Wowie-Zowie Weapons (PORGYS style)
No Weapon Recoil
No Push-Back When Hit (Could fly right into quads without being slowed down)
Extra Ram Damage (This could also be combined with super speed...)
Infinite Vulcan/Gauss Ammo
Invisible Projectiles (Don't know if this would be possible or wanted, but it was an idea we had)
Uncapped Secondaries


What ideas do you like/dislike? What other ideas do you have?
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#2
One idea was that the moment someone becomes It things would happen. Something like "Shields become XXX" but also something like "Gets all weapons and 200 of every secondary" or something. If they gained duplicates of primaries then a feature would have to be added to remove duplicate primaries from the map, otherwise if It dies a lot then the map could be filled with spew.

Part of our discussion was to think of things that enhance what a player can do rather than provide entirely new opportunities. I'm very hesitant to suggest something like increased speed for It because 1) The experience of being It would be too different from the rest of the game and 2) I can imagine that a top-level pilot able to dodge faster would simply be unstoppable.

I'm basing my ideas for Bounty mode almost entirely on my experiences with Halo 2's Juggernaut mode, which in my experience was fun and worked pretty well.

Some other ideas:
It gets a unique colour, something really crazy that immediately stands out. If there're 5 people in a dogfight room and someone becomes It, everyone should know exactly who that player is immediately. I'm thinking something cool like Tron, black ship with illuminated lines.
Make the Juggernaut bigger. I think this goes under "changes the core game too much" but it could be fun, who knows.
Invulnerability for X seconds when becoming It
Surprised I didn't think of this earlier, but flat damage reduction or % damage resistance could also be interesting. Combine this with no-hitstun and the Juggernaut could become very hard to kill, and adds to the required skills of "Be good at dodging"

0.02$

[Edit] I reviewed my earlier post on Bounty mode, kind of interesting to see how some of my opinions have changed as I've gotten better at this game. The main reason for my differing opinions is what I'm expecting from the game. With the multiplayer community as small as it is, I don't want to introduce a game-mode that people could dislike. Open anarchy games are great because regardless of how good or bad people are they still generally perform at their expected level. It can be a little streaky with the sheer chaos of it all, but it's not nearly as bad as Halo FFA imo. The main reason why I think it would be good to avoid Juggernaut bonuses that change core gameplay is because I can imagine this scenario:

Gold Pilot: "Oh there's an open anarchy game, I'll hop in and play for a bit before my DCL match against <Other Gold Pilot>. Oh wait, it's bounty. I don't want to play when the game is too different from my next game. I'll just go do something else."

I don't want that to happen. I want people to be able to casually hop in and have some fun with either working as a team to take down the Juggernaut, or to be the Juggernaut and slaughter everyone. I think it's worth having the direction of "Now how can we do this in a way that doesn't tamper with the core gameplay experience of positioning and dodging and aiming and map awareness and keeping escape routes and fire zones etc."

[Edit]
Just had another idea. All weapons from the Juggernaut home. Homing fusion for everyone!
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#3
So you guys are talking about the variables of the juggernaut (The bounty), but you guys are ultimately missing the flawed objective of it. Regardless if you change up the variables or not, it still boils down to, your kills count only if you kill juggernaut or are the juggernaut. Balancing needs to happen. Either you get a disproportionate amount of points when killing the juggernaut (assuming he is stronger), or there needs to be a new system in which you make points.

so A: killing Juggernaut gives 10 kills, Juggernaut makes 1 kill per person (assuming he is super strong). This is to stop one sided games from occurring.
or B: killing juggernaut still gave.. lets say 5 kills, but the juggernaut would make 1 kill every 5 seconds. Basically stay alive as long as possible as the juggernaut. Kinda like keep away or king of the hill but you are the hill.
or c: some other form of ballancing that makes it so it is more advantageous to kill the juggernaut than it already is.
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#4
That's the point though Blarget. Killing the Juggernaut is already the most advantageous decision to make for a player. If being the Juggernaut is how you get the most points, then game theory would indicate that the best thing for the other team to do is try to kill them.

I don't think it's necessary to modify kill score in the way you're suggesting. My previous experiences with this game mode showed me that it's pretty common to have huge swings in the scores. This is also why there are so many different options for how to buff the Juggernaut. Even in Halo if you turned them all on you could literally have a toddler play and they would still crush everyone. If you enable every toggle then it'll just be nearly downright impossible for the person who's randomly chosen to be the Juggernaut (ermagerd RNG) at the start of the game to lose. It's up to the players to choose what kind of game experience they want.

I can just imagine having a game going where the only buffs are perma cloak + no-hitstun and then Jediluke joins. He doesn't even have to dodge smarts anymore and you can't stop him from running away, GG.
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#5
(09-22-2015, 02:19 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:That's the point though Blarget. Killing the Juggernaut is already the most advantageous decision to make for a player. If being the Juggernaut is how you get the most points, then game theory would indicate that the best thing for the other team to do is try to kill them.

I don't think it's necessary to modify kill score in the way you're suggesting. My previous experiences with this game mode showed me that it's pretty common to have huge swings in the scores.

The score to kill jugg is a counter balance to the fact that juggs will rack up a lot of points simply because he is stronger and better. Would it not make sense to allow the people to successfully kill the man who has a 15 point lead to be rewarded with a significant amount of points? I think this will allow games to be much more closer in score and make the whole dynamic more interesting.
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#6
I never get invited to this type of game, so I have no preference for what is changed.  However, I can comment on the likely technical feasibility of these ideas.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Infinite Invisibility
Lots of Shield (slider, 200 to ?)
Easy to implement.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Damage Multiplied (slider, up to insta-kill)
Slow Shield Regen
Probably not too hard.  I would add in here a lesser variant of the Infinite Energy buff: on-board fuel center.  Whenever the bounty has less than 100 energy, he recharges as if he was in a fuel center.  For balance reasons, the recharge rate might need to be lower than a real fuel center.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Regenerate Secondaries (gain a smart every 10 seconds, mega every 30, or whatever)
Possible, but requires some new state tracking since nothing like this exists now.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Infinite Energy
Infinite Vulcan/Gauss Ammo
Easy.  Players would need to decide how this should interact with the Energy Converter though.  One possibility would be that "Infinite Energy" is interpreted as "Energy never drops below 100 even briefly, but can rise above that if the bounty finds an energy powerup."
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Double Weapons (4 lasers [8 with quad], 4 fusions, 2 smarts [only using 1 ammo], etc.)
Very easy if the two are fired overlapping.  Possible but a bit more trouble if they need to be offset so that you can actually see the shots as distinct.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Mega-Wowie-Zowie Weapons (PORGYS style)
Extra Ram Damage (This could also be combined with super speed...)
Invisible Projectiles (Don't know if this would be possible or wanted, but it was an idea we had)
No comment.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:No Weapon Recoil
No Push-Back When Hit (Could fly right into quads without being slowed down)
Probably easy.
(09-21-2015, 03:54 AM)A Future Pilot link Wrote:Uncapped Secondaries
What does this mean?  Allowing the bounty to fire a secondary without depleting his store is easy.  Allowing him to pick up every secondary he can is possible up to the point of integer overflow.

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:One idea was that the moment someone becomes It things would happen. Something like "Shields become XXX" but also something like "Gets all weapons and 200 of every secondary" or something. If they gained duplicates of primaries then a feature would have to be added to remove duplicate primaries from the map, otherwise if It dies a lot then the map could be filled with spew.
Technically, they cannot get duplicate primaries, since the primaries are a present/absent flag, not a counter like secondaries.  However, that could be implemented by changing the rule to be that, if you are the bounty, then for the purpose of selecting/firing a primary, the game will pretend you have that primary without actually checking.  The bounty would then drop only his actually collected primaries at death.

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:It gets a unique colour, something really crazy that immediately stands out. If there're 5 people in a dogfight room and someone becomes It, everyone should know exactly who that player is immediately. I'm thinking something cool like Tron, black ship with illuminated lines.
Interesting, but offhand, it sounds difficult.  We might be able to repurpose the object texturing support to give the bounty a visually distinctive texture, such as one of the bright lava patterns.

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:Make the Juggernaut bigger. I think this goes under "changes the core game too much" but it could be fun, who knows.
Not too hard, but this could have strange side effects.  What if the Juggernaut becomes large while in an area that is only barely large enough for normal Pyros?

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:Invulnerability for X seconds when becoming It
Easy.

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:Surprised I didn't think of this earlier, but flat damage reduction or % damage resistance could also be interesting. Combine this with no-hitstun and the Juggernaut could become very hard to kill, and adds to the required skills of "Be good at dodging"
This is possible, but it would likely be easier to improve the Juggernaut's shields and/or give Juggernaut a bigger bonus for shield powerups.

(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Jazriel link Wrote:[Edit]
Just had another idea. All weapons from the Juggernaut home. Homing fusion for everyone!
Homing is a property of the weapon type, not the shot's owner.  This would be entertaining to see, but I doubt it would catch on enough to be worth the effort to write.  However, it does inspire a related thought: composited weapon abilities.  This could be inherent to the Juggernaut or apply only when the Juggernaut has the corresponding base primary.  Possibilities:

All primaries get double-fire when the Juggernaut has the quad laser powerup.
All energy primaries get a speed boost (but not to the instant-hit speed that Vulcan/Gauss have).
All primaries get the rotating-fire effect of the Spreadfire/Helix cannon, instead of firing in a simple straight line.
All primary shots have the Phoenix cannon's bounce effect.
All primary shots have the Fusion cannon's persistence flag.  Shots do not terminate when they hit a player, but instead keep going through every target until they hit a wall.  This would be especially powerful in conjunction with the bounce effect.

Unrelated to that, I have sometimes thought it would be entertaining if the player's invulnerability had the same reflects-energy-weapons property that boss invulnerability does.  I have never looked to see how hard it would be to implement.

Juggernaut could be interesting, though perhaps overpowered, if it had the "invulnerable except from behind" property that some of the Descent 2 bosses use.  In a 1v1 game, that would be very difficult for the non-Juggernaut to overcome.  In ManyVs1 games, it would be possible if the non-Juggernauts spread out.
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#7
(09-22-2015, 08:57 PM)Blarget2 link Wrote:[quote author=Jazriel link=topic=2060.msg21864#msg21864 date=1442931567]
That's the point though Blarget. Killing the Juggernaut is already the most advantageous decision to make for a player. If being the Juggernaut is how you get the most points, then game theory would indicate that the best thing for the other team to do is try to kill them.

I don't think it's necessary to modify kill score in the way you're suggesting. My previous experiences with this game mode showed me that it's pretty common to have huge swings in the scores.

The score to kill jugg is a counter balance to the fact that juggs will rack up a lot of points simply because he is stronger and better. Would it not make sense to allow the people to successfully kill the man who has a 15 point lead to be rewarded with a significant amount of points? I think this will allow games to be much more closer in score and make the whole dynamic more interesting.
[/quote]

That would make it though that there's one potential branch of the probability tree where the best way to get the lead is to kill the juggernaut then die to someone with a lower score, then kill that person and repeat. You distribute the bonus around while you rack up your own. This is contradictory to the idea that players need to think "I want to be the juggernaut, I want to have the strength to go 1vX" so I really don't like that idea.

Keep in mind too that this game mode is essentially a team mode. Both teams should be equal against each other. If the juggernaut wins by a landslide, then it's possible too many buffs are turned on, or maybe that team is just better than the other team.


[Edit] There's also the situation where what if the juggernaut kills himself on purpose? It's obvious that then the role should be passed to another player (randomly? lowest score?). If there's a special bonus for getting the juggernaut kill (which when phrased this way contradicts the idea of the juggernaut, the whole bonus is to BE the juggernaut) then if suicide gets rid of it and no one else gets a point, then farming the juggernaut to win becomes an even easier strategy if that player is significantly better than anyone else in the game.

Kp, all of that stuff sounds nifty. It's cool to see the technical side of things. Also you made me realize that I never once considered what this game mode would be like in D2 haha. Not that I don't like D2, I do, I just didn't think about it. Infinite Omega cannon would be godlike. Multishot/rapidfire mercury missiles, infinite afterburner. Fun times lol
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#8
Normally, omega is limited both by its short range and its recharge policy.  Allowing continuous firing by removing the recharge limit is fairly easy.  Removing the range cap and preserving the appearance is harder.
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#9
I've been sweeping old reports, and this one came up. I see that in the thread, there were very few people active. Many ideas were tossed around, but I don't have a sense of whether any of these are actually popular in the community.

For anyone who wants one or more of these features included, please reply with a bulleted list of desired features, preferably ordered by descending desirability (favorite feature first, then second favorite, ...). If you want to discuss or debate the features, that's fine, but I'm mainly interested in a structured list to see which elements are popular. If you know regularly active players who do not post here, and wish to proxy their preferences in, go ahead, but include their handle so that I can filter duplicates if multiple people proxy the same pilot.

I'll start (example for format, I may not actually want some of these):

Preferences for Kp: (that is, reporting for myself)
  1. Unlimited cloak
  2. No hitstun
  3. Damage reduction

Preferences for Joe: (reporting for Joe, who plays with me, but doesn't post here)
  1. No hitstun
  2. Shield regeneration
  3. Onboard energy center
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#10
1. bounty is weaker but makes points over time.
2. Moves slightly faster
3. Slow shield regeneration.
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